Minnesota law professor on the debate over assault weapon bans

NINA MOINI: The mass shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church and School that killed two students and injured 21 others in Minneapolis, has reignited calls for gun reform and policy changes at the city, state, and federal levels, like you've been hearing about. You heard earlier from a group of Twin Cities area mayors who gathered at the Capitol to call for more authority to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines if the legislature refuses to do it at the state level.

And Governor Tim Walz, again, is mulling whether to call lawmakers back for a special session to address gun violence. Joining me now to share more about Minnesota's gun laws is Megan Walsh, the director of the Gun Violence Prevention Clinic at the University of Minnesota Law School. Thanks for your time today, Megan.

MEGAN WALSH: Thanks so much for having me here today to talk about this really important issue.

NINA MOINI: It's so important. And when things like this happen, these horrible mass shootings, your work sort of comes to the forefront again and again. But you're doing this work all the time. And I'd love to just a little bit about what you do, year round, 24/7 at the Gun Violence Prevention Clinic.

MEGAN WALSH: Absolutely. I run a clinic of law students who use their pro-bono hours to-- pardon me, I'm a little nervous I'll say.

NINA MOINI: That's OK.

MEGAN WALSH: To litigate cases with the goal of preventing gun violence. And so that shows up in two ways. We work with the Minnesota Attorney General's Office to bring affirmative litigation against wrongdoers in the gun industry. And then we also represent the state when people bring constitutional challenges to gun regulations. And the students are the ones who go in to court and negotiate with the other side, appear in court, write the briefs. And I help them learn how to do that and how to do that well.

NINA MOINI: Sure. So some of the things that people are calling for at different levels are things that come up, over and over again, it seems. And while there are many questions still around this investigation of this situation, in particular, the shooter used an AR-15 to fire over 100 rounds of ammunition in minutes.

You recently published an Op-ed in the Star Tribune, arguing that banning assault weapons in Minnesota is the necessary and constitutional next step. Would you explain your argument there?

MEGAN WALSH: Absolutely. In Minnesota, an 18-year-old who can pass a background check can walk into a gun store and buy an AR-15 with absolutely no training. That is the choice that our legislators have made for how things should work in Minnesota. What we know about the shooting last week is that we have a 23-year-old who was able to buy this gun lawfully, and it happened fairly recently.

So if you look at gun laws as a way to prevent every single shooting, you might look at them and say they're not doing their job. But if you look at them as a way to save lives, as a way to prevent children's deaths, they're very good at that. And so while we may not know exactly that an assault weapons ban would have prevented the shooting, you know it would have been a lot harder for this ever to happen.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. I think that is what the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus responds by saying that they don't necessarily believe that it would lead to less gun violence to put a ban like that in effect. Are there ways that you choose to measure the effectiveness of such laws?

MEGAN WALSH: Well, we know that in states that have the weakest gun laws, the rate of gun death is two and half times higher than states that have the strongest gun laws. So when you look at things from a macro level, gun laws really do work to save lives. And the data shows that over and over again.

I have heard people say, and it's really hard for me to hear that there was a pistol and a rifle at the shooting last week at Annunciation, but those are not the firearms that were used to shoot 116 rounds in a matter of minutes, of seconds even. So without that AR-15, we are not looking at the same shooting that we had last week.

NINA MOINI: How does Minnesota compare to other states? You were saying they're having stronger versus weaker laws. Where does Minnesota kind of stack up? Because that in recent years, at the state level, there have been some new gun-related laws that have been passed. Where does Minnesota stand?

MEGAN WALSH: Minnesota is in a band of states that is pretty strong and getting better. And that getting better piece is directly related to the legislation that was passed in 2023. And so that enhanced background check requirements. So it meant that individuals who sell a firearm to a neighbor or to someone they met online actually have to conduct a background check, and the buyer has to pass that background check before the gun can be transferred.

And then the second law that was passed in 2023 was an Extreme Risk Protection Order Act. And that allows petitioners, often law enforcement or county attorneys, to ask a judge to temporarily take away a firearm from someone who is shown in court to be a danger to themselves or others.

So those were two really important laws that people advocating for stronger gun regulations in Minnesota spent years trying to get passed. And they're very important. And if you look at the actual stories about people who have been subject to these extreme risk protection orders, they're truly scary.

I mean, the extreme risk protection orders that judges have issued in the state in just about a little more than 18 months that it's been enacted, we know that there are suicides that were prevented and a lot of these situations for people who are a danger to others.

And so when you look at that, I mean, I think anybody understands. And especially right now as Minnesota is facing this horrible shooting last week, as well as still mourning the deaths of Melissa and Mark Hortman, every gun life saved matters. Every parent who lost a child shouldn't have to have done that. And we know these laws are constitutional.

I mean, it's really easy for people to say, oh, the Supreme Court isn't going to allow this, or these aren't constitutional. But for assault weapons bans and large-capacity magazine bans, every federal court in the country that has looked at those has held those to be constitutional. And so this is not going to be-- some people act like it's an open and shut case, that these laws would not be constitutional. And that's absolutely not what we're seeing in the courts.

NINA MOINI: So Megan, I wonder from your perspective, where is the best place or the place that you feel it would be most likely to accomplish a ban on assault weapons because we know the mayors of the Twin Cities have each come forward and said, well, let us do it. Change the state law so that we can make this change on city level.

Governor Walz, we've been saying it a few times here, we've mentioned, talking about perhaps a special session. People seem to really vote along party lines right now, at least in the state legislature. And then federally, under President Donald Trump's administration, do you think that it would be likely there? Like, I just wonder too. And it's not to imply that people are doing this or on purpose, but it is an opportunity for politicians at different levels to come out and be seen and talk about their talking points. Like, where do you think a real chance would be?

MEGAN WALSH: I'm going to be honest, I am not an expert in politics. And what I know is gun laws and I about the Second Amendment in the Constitution. So your guess is as good as mine on this. What we know is that we have a governor who would sign an assault weapons ban. Do we have the votes in the legislature? I don't know.

We also that we have a mayor in Minneapolis and a city council whose support of an assault weapons ban. But there is a law in Minnesota that prevents cities and towns from enacting gun laws that are stricter than what the state provides. And there are exceptions to that law. It's called the preemption law. There are exceptions, and so cities can enact regulations that are tied to the discharge of firearms.

But whether or not they actually have the constitutional ability-- not the constitutional, but the legal ability, to pass these laws would be up for debate. And I don't know which way that would go. I could see it going both ways. At the national level--

NINA MOINI: Oh, I was just going to ask you about that. No, that's perfect because there have been so many instances across the country. What has been going on at that national or federal level?

MEGAN WALSH: Well, we did have a bipartisan bill pass a couple years ago, that was under President Biden. But it was the first federal law on gun regulations that had passed in decades. And it incorporated several things that we're talking about here. It incorporated greater funds for mental health. And then it also attacked some of the holes in gun regulations at the federal level. So that showed that it is possible.

But under the current administration, I really don't know that we have a president who would sign an assault weapons ban today. But as I said, that's not where my expertise is.

NINA MOINI: Aside from an assault weapon ban, if that was kind of something that was off the table or people didn't think they could have the votes, are there any other state-level laws that you would advocate for here in Minnesota?

MEGAN WALSH: Well, I would love to see a safe storage requirement. A lot of people might say that there's no way to enforce that. And that goes back to what I said before. If it's going to mean that more guns are stored securely and that fewer children are going to access them and unintentionally shoot somebody, then that's a success, because I do think that people want to follow the law, generally.

And so if there's a law that says you have to lock up your firearms, then they're going to do that. And right now, Minnesota has a child access protection law, but it's not a full safe storage law. And so expanding that-- I mean, Mayor Frey is asking to get rid of the preemption law. And what that would do is it would allow cities that have needs that are different from perhaps greater Minnesota to pass laws that work for those cities.

The preemption law was actually a function of the gun rights lobby doing a lot of lobbying at the state level. And so they got these preemption laws in almost all of the states decades ago. And I do understand that if someone's a responsible gun owner, they want to know what the law is, and if they're moving from one county to the next county, it's hard to pay attention to that.

But at the same time, they're the gun owners. They should be responsible to know the law. Our law provides that you are required to know the law. And having something that allows a city to reflect the goals of the voters is really important, I think, in this moment when so many of us feel powerless. I mean, so many of our leaders feel powerless. They want to do something and they haven't been able to.

What's heartbreaking for all of us is that so many of these gun deaths can be prevented. And when you don't feel like there's any way to do that because of certain laws in place and because of certain people lobbying, it's very difficult.

NINA MOINI: Difficult work that you are doing every single day. And we thank you so much for coming by, Megan, and sharing your analysis with us. Really appreciate your time.

MEGAN WALSH: Thank you so much for having me.

NINA MOINI: That was Megan Walsh, the director of the Gun Violence Prevention Clinic at the University of Minnesota's Law School.