Former Minn. governors Carlson, Dayton tell court National Guard deployment is unconstitutional
Military personnel in uniform, with the Texas National Guard patch on, are seen at the U.S. Army Reserve Center Tuesday in Elwood, Ill., a suburb of Chicago.
Erin Hooley | AP
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Audio transcript
[THEME MUSIC] NINA MOINI: It's our top story on Minnesota Now. Texas National Guard troops are beginning their deployment in the Chicago area. And right now, a federal judge is hearing arguments over whether they should be allowed to stay. The State of Illinois and the City of Chicago sued to stop the use of National Guard troops. The Trump administration has said it needs them to protect federal agents, who are carrying out immigration enforcement orders.
A bipartisan group of former governors is asking to get involved in the case in support of Illinois and Chicago leaders. Among them are two former Minnesota governors, Democrat Mark Dayton and Arne Carlson, who served as a Republican but has since moved away from the party. Governor Arne Carlson joins me on the line now. Thanks for making some time for us this afternoon, Governor.
ARNE CARLSON: I'm delighted. Thank you. You joined a more than two dozen governors in submitting a brief to the court yesterday. Why did you make the decision to join this motion? Well, it was, frankly, a very, very easy decision on trial here. Is whether or we're going to have a constitutional democracy or a dictatorship. It's as simple--
When you go back to the founding documents of the United States, the Declaration of Independence was a list of grievances of what the founders perceived to be the cruelty and autocratic power of King George III. And they talked about the inalienable rights of liberty, justice, and equality. The Constitution defined all of that, including the separation of powers and the very, very, very limited power given to the president. And now, as a matter of fact, I think you can argue, and I would argue that the Constitution was designed to prevent a Donald Trump, not enhance one.
NINA MOINI: Do you think that an issue like this made you want to sign on to something like this? Because I know there are others who disagree. The issues driving a deep wedge between current governors around the country. Several Democratic governors are threatening to leave. We're reading the Bipartisan National Governors Association. How did this bipartisan group form of Governors to come to this agreement that you are a part of?
ARNE CARLSON: Well, let's be very clear. Several decades, we've seen more loyalty to political parties than we have to our national interests, and that has to stop. We are Americans. My parents were immigrants from Sweden, and they came here to seek the advantages of the United States. They didn't come here as Democrats or Republicans. So this has nothing to do with party politics and has everything to do with whether or not we want a democracy or a dictatorship.
NINA MOINI: We heard in our newscast just a few minutes ago, I don't know if you were listening, from Governor Tim Walz saying that if that or a similar situation were to happen here in Minnesota, that he would challenge it in court. All of these court challenges going on at the same time, Governor, I wonder what your thoughts are about how opinions are changing and moods are changing and tone is changing, while all of those different cases are going through the court system, because it can take a really long time.
ARNE CARLSON: Well, the hope is that they'll be in a position of ruling against the president, trying to form what amounts to a national police force. This is what this is all about, frankly. And let me just be very blunt. It has nothing to do with crime. And it has everything with the consolidation of power, Donald Trump wants all power consolidated in the presidency.
He wants a national police force that can impose restrictions on the freedom of speech, freedom of movement, and freedom of dissent. That's what it's about. And I see no reason why we continue to skirt around the obvious. I think all of us have to put the well-being of the country well ahead of the party.
NINA MOINI: And there's also a separate conversation, but similar going on about the possible use of the Insurrection Act. President Trump has said he may use that 1807 law to deploy the military in cities like Portland. What do you think of that Possibility?
ARNE CARLSON: Well, he continues to twist the meaning of all these acts. There was an insurrection attempt on January 6, and there was violence, there was death, there was destruction. There was a cry from the crowd to basically lynch the vice president of the United States. And the only thing Donald Trump said was, we love you.
NINA MOINI: I know that signing on to the brief is one form of action. I sense a lot of frustration in your voice. I wonder what else are you doing? Or other former governors to come to the forefront right now, because it sounds like you really want to use all the influence or power that you have.
ARNE CARLSON: Yeah. I'm signing on to anything that allows us to protect our Democratic powers. And I realize that a lot of people like to sit it out. But I spent a lot of time in college studying the rise and fall of the Nazi government. And every single action that has taken place so far comes, frankly, from the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany. And the one thing we cannot afford is to have people sit on the sidelines or other people excuse things and say, well, maybe tomorrow something will get better.
No, it won't get better. It will get worse. I am 91 years old. I'm not likely to be adversely affected, but my children are, my grandchildren are, my friends, my neighbors, the State of Minnesota, all of us will be adversely affected. And then we'll sit back and say, oh, my heavens. How did this ever happen? Donald Trump wants a national police force to be his police force, to get rid of his opposition, to punish his enemies, and to impose dictatorial law.
Just as simple as that. It's not hard to understand. And the Constitution was designed to prevent that. That's why there was separation of powers and very limited power given to the executive branch. When you look at Madison's Federalist Paper 45, what does he talk about? He talks about the limits of power. Power delegated to the federal government should be few and well-defined. I challenge anybody to find any provision in the American Constitution that allows the President of the United States to create a national police force. The reality is this.
NINA MOINI: Go ahead.
ARNE CARLSON: Our democracy, our governments exist on cooperation. That's what we have telephones, we have ways to communicate with each other. If there is a genuine concern that things are going wrong in Chicago, you pick up the phone and you talk to the mayor, talk to the government, and you cooperate. You don't turn around and say, I think both of them belong in jail.
NINA MOINI: I do thank you for your perspective on this. While we do have though--
ARNE CARLSON: I thought my words would be too subtle.
NINA MOINI: No. Right. While I do have you, though, Governor, I want to ask about another issue that's really important to a lot of people. Governor Walz has been struggling to get Minnesota lawmakers to commit to a deal over a special session on gun laws. This is, of course, something people have been calling for very loudly after the mass shooting at Annunciation Catholic school and church in August. I understand you called a special session in 1997, didn't have a deal, it sounds like going into it, ultimately, didn't get what you were looking for after a few weeks. What is your take on this idea of the special session, and when its right to call one.
ARNE CARLSON: Well, I think we have to get back to a democracy that depends on The Will of the people. The people, frankly, want restrictions. There's no question about that. The polls are overwhelming. I'd like to see a constitutional Amendment and let the people decide, because it's not going to be decided by elected officials. There are several things the public stands for that the elected officials have pushed aside, because it harms their own personal self-interest. One, for instance, is term limits. Over 80% of Americans favor it, yet you can't even get it on the ballot.
NINA MOINI: So do you think Governor Walz should-- or should or should not call a special session as soon as possible?
ARNE CARLSON: I think he's got to make that call depending upon what kind of votes he thinks he has. But I do think a compromise solution is to request a constitutional amendment.
NINA MOINI: And what would it say?
ARNE CARLSON: And that's Very hard for any incumbent legislator to vote against.
NINA MOINI: What would it say?
ARNE CARLSON: It would define what weapons you want restrictions on.
NINA MOINI: OK. All right. Thank you very much for your time this afternoon, Governor. Really appreciate it.
ARNE CARLSON: Delighted. Thank you.
NINA MOINI: That's former Minnesota Governor Arne Carlson.
A bipartisan group of former governors is asking to get involved in the case in support of Illinois and Chicago leaders. Among them are two former Minnesota governors, Democrat Mark Dayton and Arne Carlson, who served as a Republican but has since moved away from the party. Governor Arne Carlson joins me on the line now. Thanks for making some time for us this afternoon, Governor.
ARNE CARLSON: I'm delighted. Thank you. You joined a more than two dozen governors in submitting a brief to the court yesterday. Why did you make the decision to join this motion? Well, it was, frankly, a very, very easy decision on trial here. Is whether or we're going to have a constitutional democracy or a dictatorship. It's as simple--
When you go back to the founding documents of the United States, the Declaration of Independence was a list of grievances of what the founders perceived to be the cruelty and autocratic power of King George III. And they talked about the inalienable rights of liberty, justice, and equality. The Constitution defined all of that, including the separation of powers and the very, very, very limited power given to the president. And now, as a matter of fact, I think you can argue, and I would argue that the Constitution was designed to prevent a Donald Trump, not enhance one.
NINA MOINI: Do you think that an issue like this made you want to sign on to something like this? Because I know there are others who disagree. The issues driving a deep wedge between current governors around the country. Several Democratic governors are threatening to leave. We're reading the Bipartisan National Governors Association. How did this bipartisan group form of Governors to come to this agreement that you are a part of?
ARNE CARLSON: Well, let's be very clear. Several decades, we've seen more loyalty to political parties than we have to our national interests, and that has to stop. We are Americans. My parents were immigrants from Sweden, and they came here to seek the advantages of the United States. They didn't come here as Democrats or Republicans. So this has nothing to do with party politics and has everything to do with whether or not we want a democracy or a dictatorship.
NINA MOINI: We heard in our newscast just a few minutes ago, I don't know if you were listening, from Governor Tim Walz saying that if that or a similar situation were to happen here in Minnesota, that he would challenge it in court. All of these court challenges going on at the same time, Governor, I wonder what your thoughts are about how opinions are changing and moods are changing and tone is changing, while all of those different cases are going through the court system, because it can take a really long time.
ARNE CARLSON: Well, the hope is that they'll be in a position of ruling against the president, trying to form what amounts to a national police force. This is what this is all about, frankly. And let me just be very blunt. It has nothing to do with crime. And it has everything with the consolidation of power, Donald Trump wants all power consolidated in the presidency.
He wants a national police force that can impose restrictions on the freedom of speech, freedom of movement, and freedom of dissent. That's what it's about. And I see no reason why we continue to skirt around the obvious. I think all of us have to put the well-being of the country well ahead of the party.
NINA MOINI: And there's also a separate conversation, but similar going on about the possible use of the Insurrection Act. President Trump has said he may use that 1807 law to deploy the military in cities like Portland. What do you think of that Possibility?
ARNE CARLSON: Well, he continues to twist the meaning of all these acts. There was an insurrection attempt on January 6, and there was violence, there was death, there was destruction. There was a cry from the crowd to basically lynch the vice president of the United States. And the only thing Donald Trump said was, we love you.
NINA MOINI: I know that signing on to the brief is one form of action. I sense a lot of frustration in your voice. I wonder what else are you doing? Or other former governors to come to the forefront right now, because it sounds like you really want to use all the influence or power that you have.
ARNE CARLSON: Yeah. I'm signing on to anything that allows us to protect our Democratic powers. And I realize that a lot of people like to sit it out. But I spent a lot of time in college studying the rise and fall of the Nazi government. And every single action that has taken place so far comes, frankly, from the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany. And the one thing we cannot afford is to have people sit on the sidelines or other people excuse things and say, well, maybe tomorrow something will get better.
No, it won't get better. It will get worse. I am 91 years old. I'm not likely to be adversely affected, but my children are, my grandchildren are, my friends, my neighbors, the State of Minnesota, all of us will be adversely affected. And then we'll sit back and say, oh, my heavens. How did this ever happen? Donald Trump wants a national police force to be his police force, to get rid of his opposition, to punish his enemies, and to impose dictatorial law.
Just as simple as that. It's not hard to understand. And the Constitution was designed to prevent that. That's why there was separation of powers and very limited power given to the executive branch. When you look at Madison's Federalist Paper 45, what does he talk about? He talks about the limits of power. Power delegated to the federal government should be few and well-defined. I challenge anybody to find any provision in the American Constitution that allows the President of the United States to create a national police force. The reality is this.
NINA MOINI: Go ahead.
ARNE CARLSON: Our democracy, our governments exist on cooperation. That's what we have telephones, we have ways to communicate with each other. If there is a genuine concern that things are going wrong in Chicago, you pick up the phone and you talk to the mayor, talk to the government, and you cooperate. You don't turn around and say, I think both of them belong in jail.
NINA MOINI: I do thank you for your perspective on this. While we do have though--
ARNE CARLSON: I thought my words would be too subtle.
NINA MOINI: No. Right. While I do have you, though, Governor, I want to ask about another issue that's really important to a lot of people. Governor Walz has been struggling to get Minnesota lawmakers to commit to a deal over a special session on gun laws. This is, of course, something people have been calling for very loudly after the mass shooting at Annunciation Catholic school and church in August. I understand you called a special session in 1997, didn't have a deal, it sounds like going into it, ultimately, didn't get what you were looking for after a few weeks. What is your take on this idea of the special session, and when its right to call one.
ARNE CARLSON: Well, I think we have to get back to a democracy that depends on The Will of the people. The people, frankly, want restrictions. There's no question about that. The polls are overwhelming. I'd like to see a constitutional Amendment and let the people decide, because it's not going to be decided by elected officials. There are several things the public stands for that the elected officials have pushed aside, because it harms their own personal self-interest. One, for instance, is term limits. Over 80% of Americans favor it, yet you can't even get it on the ballot.
NINA MOINI: So do you think Governor Walz should-- or should or should not call a special session as soon as possible?
ARNE CARLSON: I think he's got to make that call depending upon what kind of votes he thinks he has. But I do think a compromise solution is to request a constitutional amendment.
NINA MOINI: And what would it say?
ARNE CARLSON: And that's Very hard for any incumbent legislator to vote against.
NINA MOINI: What would it say?
ARNE CARLSON: It would define what weapons you want restrictions on.
NINA MOINI: OK. All right. Thank you very much for your time this afternoon, Governor. Really appreciate it.
ARNE CARLSON: Delighted. Thank you.
NINA MOINI: That's former Minnesota Governor Arne Carlson.
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