Senator Klobuchar debriefs her conversation with President Zelensky in Ukraine
Sen. Amy Klobuchar met with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
Courtesy of U.S. Embassy | Klobuchar Press Office
Minnesota’s Senior U.S. Senator Amy Klobuchar has spent most of the past week in Ukraine with Ohio’s Republican Senator Rob Portman visiting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. Sen. Klobuchar talked with Cathy Wurzer about the trip. Their conversations included talk about weapons, U.S. aid and that nuclear plant that’s in jeopardy of being shelled.
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Audio transcript
[MUSIC PLAYING] CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): Minnesota's Senior US Senator Amy Klobuchar is on her way back home after a quick trip to Ukraine with Republican Senator Rob Portman of Ohio to meet with President Vladimir Zelensky. Senator Klobuchar is on the line right now. Good to have you with us.
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Well, thank you, Cathy, it's great to be on, and we couldn't have had a better meeting with President Zelensky, over an hour, as well as getting moving reports from the Ukrainians on the street. We went to Bucha where, of course, they had horrendous war crimes committed against everyday citizens, mass graves. We went to many of the sites where the Ukrainians stood their ground against the Russians. And everyone is focused on the danger of the Europe's biggest nuclear plant, which is located in Zarvanytsia, which is in Ukraine.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): Right. And inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency are on the ground, evidently. How worried should Europeans be about that nuclear power plant?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Well, the Russians have shelled, literally, 400 feet away from the reactor. It is being run by a skeleton crew of Ukrainians. We talked at length to our Embassy people. We now have Americans staffing the Embassy in Kiev.
And their crew has valiantly kept this plant going and was able to connect power lines when the Russians cut them off to the plant. They're, obviously, trying to divert the energy from this plant to a location that's held by Russians. And so right now, the concern is that either the skeleton crew, which is being, of course, really guarded and monitored by 500 Russian soldiers.
So they're having to take direction from Russian soldiers while being Ukrainians. They could make a mistake from exhaustion. There could be shelling that goes awry, even, unintentionally.
Anything that does-- puts people at risk in that plant, in addition to, obviously, the reactor, is a very dangerous situation. Chernobyl's that-- not that far away, and people are very aware of the risk here. So the hope is that the international group can come in, issue a report so we at least know if there's any damage, what the safety level is, and then call for as the Ukrainians are and we are for a demilitarized zone around the plant.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): You visited Ukraine back in January, I recall, with a bipartisan group of senators. You met with President Zelensky at that time. What message did he want you to bring back to the US this time?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Number one, how grateful he is and the Ukrainians are for our support, as well as the 42 nations in the Coalition. One of the Embassy people actually told me the story of how they had ordered takeout food from a restaurant in Ukraine just recently, and it came back to them where they knew it was going to the Embassy, and someone had hand-written from a Ukrainian restaurant, "thanks for the high marks."
The technology that we've given them that they are running so well, as we learned at the 101st Airborne in Poland, the Ukrainians are a masterclass in how to use some of this technology. And they've learned quickly. They're maintaining it. And that's made a big difference for them.
He also, of course, wants people to know how brave his own people are, how brave his soldiers are, how they put themselves on the line. He is, of course, interested in continuing help, not only from us, but countries like the one I was just in-- Poland. 5% of their budget's on military now, and they have brought in over a million refugees into Poland alone from Ukraine.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): Do Ukrainian forces have the might and the equipment they need to succeed in this current counteroffensive that's going on?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): They're obviously up against a superpower, and I think everyone had counted them out for a few weeks. That was the common wisdom of all the experts when this started. And they have defied every expectation to the point now where the Russians have much higher casualty rates.
They have lost over a-- the estimates are 90,000 to 100000 Russian troops. They are now recruiting in prisons, they are demoralized as reports of soldiers journals and other things that back this up. Ukrainians, on the other hand, are emboldened to protect their country.
They have, of course, suffered major, major losses, so that's not to be minimized. But there's a very big difference between how these troops feel about what's happening. I think we will continue to send them arms and military.
The difference from six months ago is, we're now matching what they need with the operations they're planning. I think before, of course, everyone was scurrying and trying to figure out what they needed. And now, there's much better coordination between all the countries in this alliance.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): There's military support. What other kinds of support could the US offer?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Well, the US is helping with humanitarian aid, millions of people displaced both within country and outside of the country. US is helping, of course, with some of their daily needs with security at the border and things like this. Kiev is functioning, the town is functioning.
But when you go further out, just to give you some sense of where Bucha is, it's like the length of time it takes to drive to, say, Edina, or Burnsville. I mean, that's how close in some of this major damage was in Irpin, which is where all these 20,000 some apartments were and nearby areas were damaged.
So they have suffered major loss, so they're also focused on the long-term economic of what was really and will be again an economic powerhouse in Europe, and that's Ukraine.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): You were there with, as I mentioned in the intro, Republican Senate Colleague Rob Portman of Ohio. Do Democrats and Republicans in Congress agree on what role the US should play in this conflict?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Overall, yes, there has been some disagreement from more conservative Republicans, many whom just, to me, seems like they do not want to work with President Biden on this. Rob Portman and several others, including Mitch McConnell, have been very supportive, understanding that this is about Ukraine. Yes, it's about a horrendous evil and inhuman barbarism, war crimes, but it's also about democracies in the future.
If we let Vladimir Putin do this, he has already been using food as a weapon. He's been using energy as a weapon, and plans to do that in the middle of winter to all of Europe. And he is now using a nuclear power plant as a weapon, having surrounded it with his troops, having shelled nearby.
And I think anyone that looks at this and believes in democracy and freedom, you have to stand with Ukraine. Because if he did this to Ukraine, he will do it to other democracies. And this would only be the beginning.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): This invasion is dragging into the seventh month. Is there a path for either Russia or Ukraine to claim victory here, or is there some kind of a, I don't know, a long-term stalemate inevitable in this situation?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): You know, we met with members of Parliament last night, key leaders in Ukrainian Parliament. And I think their widespread thought that no one felt this was going to be done quickly. No one thought that. And whatever the resolution will be, it's very clear that Ukraine is going to remain one united country.
And right now, they're focused with this counteroffensive that's taking place, as we speak, in the south, actually, enabled by many of the weapons that we've sent them, and Germany, and Sweden, and many of the other countries, is that they have already defied expectations. As we know, Crimea had been invaded in 2014. But they are continuing to push in the southern front, as well as the Donbas in the west, and some of the-- and the Emissary of the east, some of the other areas where you-- Russians have made some-- they have taken over some towns. But again, everyone predicted even more would have been taken over at this point.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): I know you're at an airport. I appreciate your time, Senator. Thank you so much.
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): All right. Well, thank you. Yes, I've been three nights, I'm finally going to be able to, hopefully, sleep at home in my own bed. So--
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): Thank you.
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): All right. Thank you.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): Take care. That's Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar.
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Well, thank you, Cathy, it's great to be on, and we couldn't have had a better meeting with President Zelensky, over an hour, as well as getting moving reports from the Ukrainians on the street. We went to Bucha where, of course, they had horrendous war crimes committed against everyday citizens, mass graves. We went to many of the sites where the Ukrainians stood their ground against the Russians. And everyone is focused on the danger of the Europe's biggest nuclear plant, which is located in Zarvanytsia, which is in Ukraine.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): Right. And inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency are on the ground, evidently. How worried should Europeans be about that nuclear power plant?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Well, the Russians have shelled, literally, 400 feet away from the reactor. It is being run by a skeleton crew of Ukrainians. We talked at length to our Embassy people. We now have Americans staffing the Embassy in Kiev.
And their crew has valiantly kept this plant going and was able to connect power lines when the Russians cut them off to the plant. They're, obviously, trying to divert the energy from this plant to a location that's held by Russians. And so right now, the concern is that either the skeleton crew, which is being, of course, really guarded and monitored by 500 Russian soldiers.
So they're having to take direction from Russian soldiers while being Ukrainians. They could make a mistake from exhaustion. There could be shelling that goes awry, even, unintentionally.
Anything that does-- puts people at risk in that plant, in addition to, obviously, the reactor, is a very dangerous situation. Chernobyl's that-- not that far away, and people are very aware of the risk here. So the hope is that the international group can come in, issue a report so we at least know if there's any damage, what the safety level is, and then call for as the Ukrainians are and we are for a demilitarized zone around the plant.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): You visited Ukraine back in January, I recall, with a bipartisan group of senators. You met with President Zelensky at that time. What message did he want you to bring back to the US this time?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Number one, how grateful he is and the Ukrainians are for our support, as well as the 42 nations in the Coalition. One of the Embassy people actually told me the story of how they had ordered takeout food from a restaurant in Ukraine just recently, and it came back to them where they knew it was going to the Embassy, and someone had hand-written from a Ukrainian restaurant, "thanks for the high marks."
The technology that we've given them that they are running so well, as we learned at the 101st Airborne in Poland, the Ukrainians are a masterclass in how to use some of this technology. And they've learned quickly. They're maintaining it. And that's made a big difference for them.
He also, of course, wants people to know how brave his own people are, how brave his soldiers are, how they put themselves on the line. He is, of course, interested in continuing help, not only from us, but countries like the one I was just in-- Poland. 5% of their budget's on military now, and they have brought in over a million refugees into Poland alone from Ukraine.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): Do Ukrainian forces have the might and the equipment they need to succeed in this current counteroffensive that's going on?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): They're obviously up against a superpower, and I think everyone had counted them out for a few weeks. That was the common wisdom of all the experts when this started. And they have defied every expectation to the point now where the Russians have much higher casualty rates.
They have lost over a-- the estimates are 90,000 to 100000 Russian troops. They are now recruiting in prisons, they are demoralized as reports of soldiers journals and other things that back this up. Ukrainians, on the other hand, are emboldened to protect their country.
They have, of course, suffered major, major losses, so that's not to be minimized. But there's a very big difference between how these troops feel about what's happening. I think we will continue to send them arms and military.
The difference from six months ago is, we're now matching what they need with the operations they're planning. I think before, of course, everyone was scurrying and trying to figure out what they needed. And now, there's much better coordination between all the countries in this alliance.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): There's military support. What other kinds of support could the US offer?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Well, the US is helping with humanitarian aid, millions of people displaced both within country and outside of the country. US is helping, of course, with some of their daily needs with security at the border and things like this. Kiev is functioning, the town is functioning.
But when you go further out, just to give you some sense of where Bucha is, it's like the length of time it takes to drive to, say, Edina, or Burnsville. I mean, that's how close in some of this major damage was in Irpin, which is where all these 20,000 some apartments were and nearby areas were damaged.
So they have suffered major loss, so they're also focused on the long-term economic of what was really and will be again an economic powerhouse in Europe, and that's Ukraine.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): You were there with, as I mentioned in the intro, Republican Senate Colleague Rob Portman of Ohio. Do Democrats and Republicans in Congress agree on what role the US should play in this conflict?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): Overall, yes, there has been some disagreement from more conservative Republicans, many whom just, to me, seems like they do not want to work with President Biden on this. Rob Portman and several others, including Mitch McConnell, have been very supportive, understanding that this is about Ukraine. Yes, it's about a horrendous evil and inhuman barbarism, war crimes, but it's also about democracies in the future.
If we let Vladimir Putin do this, he has already been using food as a weapon. He's been using energy as a weapon, and plans to do that in the middle of winter to all of Europe. And he is now using a nuclear power plant as a weapon, having surrounded it with his troops, having shelled nearby.
And I think anyone that looks at this and believes in democracy and freedom, you have to stand with Ukraine. Because if he did this to Ukraine, he will do it to other democracies. And this would only be the beginning.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): This invasion is dragging into the seventh month. Is there a path for either Russia or Ukraine to claim victory here, or is there some kind of a, I don't know, a long-term stalemate inevitable in this situation?
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): You know, we met with members of Parliament last night, key leaders in Ukrainian Parliament. And I think their widespread thought that no one felt this was going to be done quickly. No one thought that. And whatever the resolution will be, it's very clear that Ukraine is going to remain one united country.
And right now, they're focused with this counteroffensive that's taking place, as we speak, in the south, actually, enabled by many of the weapons that we've sent them, and Germany, and Sweden, and many of the other countries, is that they have already defied expectations. As we know, Crimea had been invaded in 2014. But they are continuing to push in the southern front, as well as the Donbas in the west, and some of the-- and the Emissary of the east, some of the other areas where you-- Russians have made some-- they have taken over some towns. But again, everyone predicted even more would have been taken over at this point.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): I know you're at an airport. I appreciate your time, Senator. Thank you so much.
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): All right. Well, thank you. Yes, I've been three nights, I'm finally going to be able to, hopefully, sleep at home in my own bed. So--
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): Thank you.
SENATOR KLOBUCHAR (ON PHONE): All right. Thank you.
CATHY WURZER (ON PHONE): Take care. That's Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar.
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