‘This is very unusual’: A closer look at the scrutiny of use-of-force expert in state trooper case
Minnesota state trooper Ryan Londregan, 27, enters the Hennepin County Courthouse on Thursday.
Kerem Yücel | MPR News
A use-of-force expert is taking center stage in a high-profile police shooting case. State Patrol officer Ryan Londregan is charged with murder, manslaughter and assault after shooting Ricky Cobb during a traffic stop last summer.
On Thursday morning, prosecutors and the defense attorneys argued in the courtroom. Londregan’s attorneys say the use-of-force expert told prosecutors that Londregan’s actions were justified, but the county attorney’s office asked the expert to leave the case and filed charges anyway.
It’s led to calls from lawmakers to have the state take over the case. Gov. Tim Walz has said he hasn’t ruled out re-assigning the case to the attorney general.
Susan Gaertner is the special counsel for the law firm Lathrop GPM and a former Ramsey County attorney. She specializes in use-of-force cases and joined Minnesota Now to answer some top-of-mind questions.
Use the audio player above to listen to the full conversation.
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Audio transcript
CATHY WURZER: Here's one of the top regional stories that we're following. A use of force expert is taking center stage in a high profile Minnesota police shooting case. State patrol officer Ryan Londregan is charged with murder, manslaughter, and assault after shooting Ricky Cobb during a traffic stop last summer.
This morning, prosecutors and defense attorneys argued in the courtroom over what the use of force expert allegedly said. Londregan's attorneys say the expert who is a longtime trainer for the state patrol told prosecutors that Londregan's actions were justified and offered to perform a complete use of force review of the case, which prosecutors declined.
He also says Londregan followed his training and did not violate policy. It's led to calls from lawmakers to have the state take over the case. Governor Walz has said he has not ruled out reassigning the case to the Attorney General.
Susan Gaertner is the special counsel for the law firm Lathrop GPM and a former Ramsey County attorney. She specializes in use of force cases. And she talked with us immediately following the shooting last August. She joins us again today to answer some top of mind questions. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Good to talk with you again.
SUSAN GAERTNER: And good to be with you again, Cathy.
CATHY WURZER: This is becoming a tangled story. The expert says prosecutors cherry picked one sentence from his 37 page interview, left out critical facts, which are purposely misleading, which is a pretty strong statement to make. Is this typical legal theater during discovery or something more?
SUSAN GAERTNER: I don't think this is typical. This is a great deal more public, a great deal more contentious prior to trial. I think that this is very unusual and very emotional, and as you say, very political.
CATHY WURZER: I'm going to ask about the politics here in a couple of minutes. But evidently, there was another independent use of force expert who the county attorney evidently stopped working with after the expert said trooper Londregan acted reasonably. Mary Moriarty is saying her office was able to determine charges without a use of force expert. Again, this is pretty complicated. Is that normal or unusual?
SUSAN GAERTNER: I think what's gotten lost in this discussion is the focus on-- when I say this discussion, I mean, the public one, the newspaper the headlines the press conferences.
What is not being focused on is the fact that ultimately the question of whether or not the use of force was reasonable is a question for the jury. If it were simply a matter of, what is the use of force experts' opinion, we could dispense with the whole jury trial process.
It is, again, it's a question for the jury. And the role of a use of force expert is to take advantage of that person's expertise to give the jury the experts' perspective. And then, it's up to them to weigh that along with their own common sense, their own experience, and their own sense of what was appropriate in the situation and make the ultimate determination of whether the use of force was reasonable.
Typically, in a trial, you would have a use of force expert brought forth by both sides. And then, the jury will listen carefully to the nature of the use of force expert's qualifications, on what basis they made their conclusion that the use of force was reasonable or not, depending on which side is calling them. And then, again, deliberate amongst the 12 of them and decide what they think-- whether or not they think the use of force was reasonable.
CATHY WURZER: Let's talk about the use of force expert the state trooper trainer. His name is Sergeant Jason Halverson. He filed an affidavit in this case. Again, complicated and he said, he said, that kind of thing. But what did you make of that?
SUSAN GAERTNER: I think that what you pointed out, he said complicated, is really important. And I sitting here watching the whole thing unfold from the outside can't really responsibly form an opinion as to what is happening.
And the other thing I want to emphasize is that Minnesota has what's called an open file policy in terms of prosecuting a case. In other words, the prosecution has to give to the defense every piece of paper that is relevant to the case with very, very few exceptions.
And then, the trial itself is an open process. And so whatever's going on behind the scenes, whatever's going on in terms of he said, he said, this line from an interview versus that line from an interview, it will all be provided to the defense. And it will be all brought out in court, again, with certain narrow exceptions.
And so drawing any conclusions from this pretrial activity is, I think, pretty problematic.
CATHY WURZER: Let's talk about the political pressure in this case. You probably have heard that Democratic representatives Angie Craig and Dean Phillips are joining four Republicans in the Minnesota congressional delegation and calling for this case to be reassigned.
And it's unclear as to what the governor might do. This seems to be really mired in politics. How difficult is that when you look at a case like this? I think that one of the hardest things when I was the county attorney, the elected official making the decision-- one of the hardest things was to keep the politics of the situation out of the decision making process.
It's very important. And it's the reason we have an independently elected county attorney to make those very difficult decisions. The community chooses who their county attorney will be. And then, gives that county attorney the responsibility to make difficult decisions such as who will be charged with a crime and what that crime-- what those charges will be.
And so I've always felt as if public safety and politics are not a good mix. And so it's been a long standing issue that pops up from time to time.
CATHY WURZER: And as a person who's sat in the seat that Mary Moriarty is in, as people question your judgment, how wounded do you become as a leader? Does that make sense?
[LAUGHS]
SUSAN GAERTNER: Well, I guess I could look at that question in two ways. Wounded. You have to have a very thick skin. And you have to have a lot of courage to be in that job to evaluate the facts, the law, and make independent decisions irrespective of what the impact might be on your career. So there's that sense.
But if you're talking about how this kind of public discourse can impact the justice system or that particular office holder's reputation in the community or the confidence that the public has in the decision making, that's a more difficult question.
And at some point, you can imagine that that-- overall, the view of the community and their confidence in the criminal justice system can be impacted by this kind of public discussion. But there's all kinds of other things that go on in the community that can have a greater impact on the confidence in the criminal justice system.
CATHY WURZER: I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you so much for taking the time.
SUSAN GAERTNER: My pleasure. Take care.
CATHY WURZER: You too. Susan Gaertner is the special counsel for the law firm Lathrop GPM and a former Ramsey county attorney.
This morning, prosecutors and defense attorneys argued in the courtroom over what the use of force expert allegedly said. Londregan's attorneys say the expert who is a longtime trainer for the state patrol told prosecutors that Londregan's actions were justified and offered to perform a complete use of force review of the case, which prosecutors declined.
He also says Londregan followed his training and did not violate policy. It's led to calls from lawmakers to have the state take over the case. Governor Walz has said he has not ruled out reassigning the case to the Attorney General.
Susan Gaertner is the special counsel for the law firm Lathrop GPM and a former Ramsey County attorney. She specializes in use of force cases. And she talked with us immediately following the shooting last August. She joins us again today to answer some top of mind questions. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Good to talk with you again.
SUSAN GAERTNER: And good to be with you again, Cathy.
CATHY WURZER: This is becoming a tangled story. The expert says prosecutors cherry picked one sentence from his 37 page interview, left out critical facts, which are purposely misleading, which is a pretty strong statement to make. Is this typical legal theater during discovery or something more?
SUSAN GAERTNER: I don't think this is typical. This is a great deal more public, a great deal more contentious prior to trial. I think that this is very unusual and very emotional, and as you say, very political.
CATHY WURZER: I'm going to ask about the politics here in a couple of minutes. But evidently, there was another independent use of force expert who the county attorney evidently stopped working with after the expert said trooper Londregan acted reasonably. Mary Moriarty is saying her office was able to determine charges without a use of force expert. Again, this is pretty complicated. Is that normal or unusual?
SUSAN GAERTNER: I think what's gotten lost in this discussion is the focus on-- when I say this discussion, I mean, the public one, the newspaper the headlines the press conferences.
What is not being focused on is the fact that ultimately the question of whether or not the use of force was reasonable is a question for the jury. If it were simply a matter of, what is the use of force experts' opinion, we could dispense with the whole jury trial process.
It is, again, it's a question for the jury. And the role of a use of force expert is to take advantage of that person's expertise to give the jury the experts' perspective. And then, it's up to them to weigh that along with their own common sense, their own experience, and their own sense of what was appropriate in the situation and make the ultimate determination of whether the use of force was reasonable.
Typically, in a trial, you would have a use of force expert brought forth by both sides. And then, the jury will listen carefully to the nature of the use of force expert's qualifications, on what basis they made their conclusion that the use of force was reasonable or not, depending on which side is calling them. And then, again, deliberate amongst the 12 of them and decide what they think-- whether or not they think the use of force was reasonable.
CATHY WURZER: Let's talk about the use of force expert the state trooper trainer. His name is Sergeant Jason Halverson. He filed an affidavit in this case. Again, complicated and he said, he said, that kind of thing. But what did you make of that?
SUSAN GAERTNER: I think that what you pointed out, he said complicated, is really important. And I sitting here watching the whole thing unfold from the outside can't really responsibly form an opinion as to what is happening.
And the other thing I want to emphasize is that Minnesota has what's called an open file policy in terms of prosecuting a case. In other words, the prosecution has to give to the defense every piece of paper that is relevant to the case with very, very few exceptions.
And then, the trial itself is an open process. And so whatever's going on behind the scenes, whatever's going on in terms of he said, he said, this line from an interview versus that line from an interview, it will all be provided to the defense. And it will be all brought out in court, again, with certain narrow exceptions.
And so drawing any conclusions from this pretrial activity is, I think, pretty problematic.
CATHY WURZER: Let's talk about the political pressure in this case. You probably have heard that Democratic representatives Angie Craig and Dean Phillips are joining four Republicans in the Minnesota congressional delegation and calling for this case to be reassigned.
And it's unclear as to what the governor might do. This seems to be really mired in politics. How difficult is that when you look at a case like this? I think that one of the hardest things when I was the county attorney, the elected official making the decision-- one of the hardest things was to keep the politics of the situation out of the decision making process.
It's very important. And it's the reason we have an independently elected county attorney to make those very difficult decisions. The community chooses who their county attorney will be. And then, gives that county attorney the responsibility to make difficult decisions such as who will be charged with a crime and what that crime-- what those charges will be.
And so I've always felt as if public safety and politics are not a good mix. And so it's been a long standing issue that pops up from time to time.
CATHY WURZER: And as a person who's sat in the seat that Mary Moriarty is in, as people question your judgment, how wounded do you become as a leader? Does that make sense?
[LAUGHS]
SUSAN GAERTNER: Well, I guess I could look at that question in two ways. Wounded. You have to have a very thick skin. And you have to have a lot of courage to be in that job to evaluate the facts, the law, and make independent decisions irrespective of what the impact might be on your career. So there's that sense.
But if you're talking about how this kind of public discourse can impact the justice system or that particular office holder's reputation in the community or the confidence that the public has in the decision making, that's a more difficult question.
And at some point, you can imagine that that-- overall, the view of the community and their confidence in the criminal justice system can be impacted by this kind of public discussion. But there's all kinds of other things that go on in the community that can have a greater impact on the confidence in the criminal justice system.
CATHY WURZER: I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you so much for taking the time.
SUSAN GAERTNER: My pleasure. Take care.
CATHY WURZER: You too. Susan Gaertner is the special counsel for the law firm Lathrop GPM and a former Ramsey county attorney.
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