Fact-checking Minnesota mentions in President Donald Trump's State of the Union speech
President Donald Trump delivers the State of the Union address to a joint session of Congress in the House chamber at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, Tuesday.
Kenny Holston | The New York Times via AP, Pool
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Audio transcript
[THEME MUSIC] NINA MOINI: Minnesota was a target in President Donald Trump's State of the Union speech last night, but he didn't talk about the surge in federal immigration agents to the state. Instead, he focused on fraud. Trump said corruption is a problem in the US and specifically called out Minnesota.
DONALD TRUMP: There's been no more stunning example than Minnesota, where members of the Somali community have pillaged an estimated $19 billion from the American taxpayer. We have all the information.
NINA MOINI: Here to break down President Trump's claim is Matt Sepic, who's been following fraud in the state for us. Thanks for being here, Matt.
MATT SEPIC: Hi, Nina.
NINA MOINI: Let's talk about that $19 billion number we just heard from President Trump who he claims was stolen. Where is he getting that number?
MATT SEPIC: Good question. But I think I have an idea. This, I believe, dates to a December 18 news conference at the US attorney's office, where first assistant US attorney Joe Thompson, who has since resigned from the office, unveiled the latest fraud charges in a big Medicaid case that he had been prosecuting. At that news conference, he suggested that fraudsters may have siphoned at least half of the $18 billion that was spent in Minnesota since 2018 in 14 different Medicaid programs that investigators had flagged at a high risk for abuse.
Although, the dollar amounts actually tied to prosecutions over the last couple of years, and that includes the big Feeding Our Future case targeting government child nutrition programs. Those prosecutions, the amount of money that's actually in charging documents, is closer to $300 million. That's what's been proven in the Feeding Our Future case so far. And there's been more fraud alleged in the Medicaid programs, but those prosecutions are still in their very early stages, and it's hard to say where they're going at this point, since Thompson and all of the other assistant US attorneys working with him on fraud cases have quit.
NINA MOINI: And I just want to go over it again just so people are able to listen close and understand it. Sounds like the real estimate Thompson was giving was $9 billion.
MATT SEPIC: Correct. Yeah. And it's important to point out that is an estimate. He based that largely on the pattern of growth of taxpayer cash outlays in those 14 Medicaid programs that had been flagged at high risk for fraud. That includes one that the governor shut down, Housing Stabilization Services. There is also an autism support program and a dozen others that have been created but are at high risk for fraud and have been the focus of investigators.
And in those programs, Nina, this is aside from Feeding Our Future, the federal child nutrition program, which is not a Medicaid program, dollar amounts of fraud actually charged in those Medicaid programs are really now, and it's still a lot of money and it is taxpayer money, but those are in the tens of millions of dollars. And that's what has been alleged so far.
NINA MOINI: And can you talk to about why President Trump singles out members of the Somali community when he talks about fraud?
MATT SEPIC: Well, it's been a convenient pretext for him. And it is true that most of the dozens of people prosecuted in these fraud cases are Somali American. It's important to point out too Nina that the ringleader, Aimee Bock, is white. She was convicted at trial last year, along with Salim Said, who is another major player in the Feeding Our Future scam.
And they face decades in prison, along with other leaders. I know one sentenced last year got 28 years. Bock, I assume, is looking at a similar prison sentence when she faces sentencing before Judge Nancy Brasel here. I believe it's going to probably be happening in the next month or two, but the sentencing date hasn't been set.
NINA MOINI: That's good context. Thank you. But what have Minnesota's leaders said, Matt, about fraud in the state and what they're actually going to do to address it?
MATT SEPIC: Well, we've been reporting on that this week. The political team, Estelle Timar-Wilcox and Peter Cox, reported, I believe, Monday on a state review that says Minnesota agencies need better oversight and staff training to combat fraud. The state's Director of Program Integrity, Tim O'Malley, says the state needs an independent watchdog to oversee fraud prevention, and that's something that lawmakers are looking at.
Our Dana Ferguson at the Capitol reported this week that consensus is beginning to emerge in the legislature that a new fraud fighting office needs to be established in state government, but the devil's in the details. The debate is bogging down over the duty's makeup and, most importantly, the budget for this proposed office of the Inspector General, Dana reports.
NINA MOINI: And President Trump has said that he'll designate Vice President JD Vance as a leader on what he called the war on fraud. What do we know about that and what that might actually look like?
MATT SEPIC: The president appears to be signaling that fraud is solely a problem in Democratic-led states, like Minnesota. And he suggested that eliminating fraud could balance the federal budget. That is wildly false. The national debt, Nina, is upwards of $39 trillion. And, of course, the president made no mention of the billions of dollars that his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, received from the Saudi government, or what that government might be getting in exchange for it, or the money that the Trump family has been making from its cryptocurrency ventures.
NINA MOINI: And Trump has said the surge in immigration officials to Minnesota is tied to fraud. Can you explain that connection that he makes?
MATT SEPIC: Well, it's a good pretext. I mean, he has been public about his dislike of the Somali-American community. He called them, quote, "garbage." He called Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, who is a Somali-American, also garbage. And he has been using fraud, as I say, as a pretext to target Somali-Americans for immigration enforcement. But we call them Somali-Americans because they are mostly American citizens. They came here decades ago.
Many were born here in the community, are natural born citizens. And there are 80,000 plus Somali-Americans in Minnesota. And it's really important to point out that the vast majority of them, not only are they citizens, they have nothing to do with Feeding Our Future or Medicaid fraud, or anything else criminal.
NINA MOINI: All right, Matt Sepic, thanks for your reporting.
MATT SEPIC: OK. Glad to be here.
DONALD TRUMP: There's been no more stunning example than Minnesota, where members of the Somali community have pillaged an estimated $19 billion from the American taxpayer. We have all the information.
NINA MOINI: Here to break down President Trump's claim is Matt Sepic, who's been following fraud in the state for us. Thanks for being here, Matt.
MATT SEPIC: Hi, Nina.
NINA MOINI: Let's talk about that $19 billion number we just heard from President Trump who he claims was stolen. Where is he getting that number?
MATT SEPIC: Good question. But I think I have an idea. This, I believe, dates to a December 18 news conference at the US attorney's office, where first assistant US attorney Joe Thompson, who has since resigned from the office, unveiled the latest fraud charges in a big Medicaid case that he had been prosecuting. At that news conference, he suggested that fraudsters may have siphoned at least half of the $18 billion that was spent in Minnesota since 2018 in 14 different Medicaid programs that investigators had flagged at a high risk for abuse.
Although, the dollar amounts actually tied to prosecutions over the last couple of years, and that includes the big Feeding Our Future case targeting government child nutrition programs. Those prosecutions, the amount of money that's actually in charging documents, is closer to $300 million. That's what's been proven in the Feeding Our Future case so far. And there's been more fraud alleged in the Medicaid programs, but those prosecutions are still in their very early stages, and it's hard to say where they're going at this point, since Thompson and all of the other assistant US attorneys working with him on fraud cases have quit.
NINA MOINI: And I just want to go over it again just so people are able to listen close and understand it. Sounds like the real estimate Thompson was giving was $9 billion.
MATT SEPIC: Correct. Yeah. And it's important to point out that is an estimate. He based that largely on the pattern of growth of taxpayer cash outlays in those 14 Medicaid programs that had been flagged at high risk for fraud. That includes one that the governor shut down, Housing Stabilization Services. There is also an autism support program and a dozen others that have been created but are at high risk for fraud and have been the focus of investigators.
And in those programs, Nina, this is aside from Feeding Our Future, the federal child nutrition program, which is not a Medicaid program, dollar amounts of fraud actually charged in those Medicaid programs are really now, and it's still a lot of money and it is taxpayer money, but those are in the tens of millions of dollars. And that's what has been alleged so far.
NINA MOINI: And can you talk to about why President Trump singles out members of the Somali community when he talks about fraud?
MATT SEPIC: Well, it's been a convenient pretext for him. And it is true that most of the dozens of people prosecuted in these fraud cases are Somali American. It's important to point out too Nina that the ringleader, Aimee Bock, is white. She was convicted at trial last year, along with Salim Said, who is another major player in the Feeding Our Future scam.
And they face decades in prison, along with other leaders. I know one sentenced last year got 28 years. Bock, I assume, is looking at a similar prison sentence when she faces sentencing before Judge Nancy Brasel here. I believe it's going to probably be happening in the next month or two, but the sentencing date hasn't been set.
NINA MOINI: That's good context. Thank you. But what have Minnesota's leaders said, Matt, about fraud in the state and what they're actually going to do to address it?
MATT SEPIC: Well, we've been reporting on that this week. The political team, Estelle Timar-Wilcox and Peter Cox, reported, I believe, Monday on a state review that says Minnesota agencies need better oversight and staff training to combat fraud. The state's Director of Program Integrity, Tim O'Malley, says the state needs an independent watchdog to oversee fraud prevention, and that's something that lawmakers are looking at.
Our Dana Ferguson at the Capitol reported this week that consensus is beginning to emerge in the legislature that a new fraud fighting office needs to be established in state government, but the devil's in the details. The debate is bogging down over the duty's makeup and, most importantly, the budget for this proposed office of the Inspector General, Dana reports.
NINA MOINI: And President Trump has said that he'll designate Vice President JD Vance as a leader on what he called the war on fraud. What do we know about that and what that might actually look like?
MATT SEPIC: The president appears to be signaling that fraud is solely a problem in Democratic-led states, like Minnesota. And he suggested that eliminating fraud could balance the federal budget. That is wildly false. The national debt, Nina, is upwards of $39 trillion. And, of course, the president made no mention of the billions of dollars that his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, received from the Saudi government, or what that government might be getting in exchange for it, or the money that the Trump family has been making from its cryptocurrency ventures.
NINA MOINI: And Trump has said the surge in immigration officials to Minnesota is tied to fraud. Can you explain that connection that he makes?
MATT SEPIC: Well, it's a good pretext. I mean, he has been public about his dislike of the Somali-American community. He called them, quote, "garbage." He called Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, who is a Somali-American, also garbage. And he has been using fraud, as I say, as a pretext to target Somali-Americans for immigration enforcement. But we call them Somali-Americans because they are mostly American citizens. They came here decades ago.
Many were born here in the community, are natural born citizens. And there are 80,000 plus Somali-Americans in Minnesota. And it's really important to point out that the vast majority of them, not only are they citizens, they have nothing to do with Feeding Our Future or Medicaid fraud, or anything else criminal.
NINA MOINI: All right, Matt Sepic, thanks for your reporting.
MATT SEPIC: OK. Glad to be here.
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