'It's hard for everybody': School psychologist explains seclusion rooms as lawmakers reconsider ban

NINA MOINI: Seclusion rooms have been used in Minnesota for decades as a last resort response to student behavioral issues in the classroom. The use of these solitary rooms was banned for some of the youngest learners statewide in 2023 after they were deemed harmful and ineffective. But now, state lawmakers are considering reversing that ban for children in grades three and under until 2036. That's because, according to some administrators, schools need more time to plan alternatives to these seclusion rooms.

Here with more context on what these rooms are and the conflicts surrounding the ban is Tascha Just. She's President-elect of the Minnesota School Psychologists Association. Thank you so much for being with us, Tascha.

TASCHA JUST: Hi. Thank you. I appreciate having you having me on. It's an important topic.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. I must say I did not know about this at all, so I'm really eager to learn. You've worked in Minnesota special education classrooms for decades. You have seen these seclusion rooms used plenty of times, I imagine. And for our listeners who may not have heard of these either, can you explain what these rooms entail, what they look like, and how they're used?

TASCHA JUST: Yes, I can. Many Minnesotans would be surprised to realize that these were being used. And I talked to a couple people last night, and they didn't even realize it. So, yes, seclusion is when a student is placed alone in a room or a separate space, a small space. They cannot leave. And it's usually happening during a behavioral crisis.

It's intended as an emergency safety measure, not as discipline. But most people agree it should not be routine. It is, however, used. It ends up being a very traumatic experience for both the student, and the staff involved, and anyone else that is around, really.

NINA MOINI: And the room is padded? Or what's going on in the room?

TASCHA JUST: Usually, it is just an empty room.

NINA MOINI: OK.

TASCHA JUST: What we would like to see for alternatives are sensory spaces. But what happens in reality is that it is an empty room. And when you are in an empty room by yourself, you hear an echo most of the time. So it is a really sensory disorienting environment a lot of the time.

And, yeah, the students are not able to leave. And it is very traumatic. There can be shouting and screaming. And anyone who is around, particularly if they don't know what is happening and that there is an emergency reason for it, it sounds like someone is being abused. And we need to change that.

NINA MOINI: It's a painful experience. We're talking about this ban that went into effect, I understand, was for third grade and under. But is it common for younger students to be put in these seclusion rooms? Why the focus on the third grade and under for the ban?

TASCHA JUST: Well, I can't speak to why the focus was only for third and under in 2024. I think it should have been for everyone. What happens is teachers and paras feel unsafe. A student may be dysregulated, unable to communicate. And that is the last tool in their tool belt that they can think of in order to keep everybody safe.

What can happen is that we may remove the rest of the people from the room at the time. And that can feel more dignifying. But what ends up happening often is a child is removed and it's a traumatic experience for all.

NINA MOINI: I wonder about administrators, parents, even, who have come forward and said they just need more time to put alternative options in place. What do you think about that? What's your reaction to that? And what would some of those alternatives look like?

TASCHA JUST: There are really good alternatives. We have sensory rooms that can be really effective-- trained crisis teams, de-escalation systems, and having more mental health supports. School psychologists are around, but the National School Psychologist Association recommends one school psych to every 500 students. And most schools in Minnesota are more than double that. So we need to have people who are able to figure out what the fit is.

And, in the meantime, what can happen is that we make determinations not necessarily based on, simply, age and disability, but we look at redesigning classrooms around regulation, around engagement, and around attention and fit, because we can reduce crises before they start if we manipulate the room in a way that feels safe to everybody. So, for example, if we have a student who is experiencing a lot of noise at home, they might feel really uncomfortable in a quiet room, and vice versa.

We might have a student who is used to really quiet and needs that and in a chaotic room, can't function. But in the other way, it just doesn't work out that way. So what we need to do is look at how people attend to information, how people learn, get their learning profile, and school psychologists can help with that.

NINA MOINI: So the talk right now is about reversing this ban until 2036. So, basically, people that are involved in constructing this bill or were weighing in on it are saying we're going to need about 10 years, a decade, to put into place some of the things that I think you're describing, right-- redesigning classrooms and some of these different processes. What do you think about that 10 years or that 2036 benchmark or goal? Do you think that makes sense?

TASCHA JUST: No, we don't need that. We can make small changes that affect a student's whole day-- an entire classroom, an entire school. We can make changes really quickly. So we just need to get creative.

It's not about funding the last resort. It's about learning how to build systems that enforce positive regulation, and belonging, and learning so that we can target those concerns before they end up to be a crisis that you're talking about, secluding a child from everyone.

NINA MOINI: And also, just before I let you go, Tascha, what is this like for the educators and then people helping out in the classroom to put children in this situation? I assume people don't want that. Is the feeling that it is being used too quickly or it's being abused? Or what is the sense around this practice from professionals like yourself?

TASCHA JUST: There are people on all spectrums. Sometimes people think it is needed because the child is so unsafe. But even in those cases, when it happens, the adults usually cry. And there's tears for the kids and for the adults because it's such a hard, hard thing.

And what happens is that the adults, then, really need to debrief. And we need to restore trust with the kids. And it becomes a really big process if you are being trauma informed. So it's hard for everybody.

NINA MOINI: Absolutely.

TASCHA JUST: Yeah. There's a lot of tears.

NINA MOINI: Absolutely. Well, Tascha, I want to thank you for coming on and telling us about this. And we're going to continue to track the debate around this and where the bill ends up. Thank you so much for your time.

TASCHA JUST: Thank you. I appreciate it. Have a good one.

NINA MOINI: You too. That was Tascha Just. And Tascha is President-elect of the Minnesota School Psychologists Association.