A local expert weighs in on escalation in the war in Israel
Palestinians check the place of the explosion at al-Ahli hospital, in Gaza City on Wednesday. The Hamas-run Health Ministry says an Israeli airstrike caused the explosion that killed hundreds at al-Ahli, but the Israeli military says it was a misfired Palestinian rocket.
Abed Khaled | AP
A number of community groups in Minneapolis are calling for a cease-fire in Gaza as the war between Israel and Hamas continues to escalate. Hundreds of people were killed Tuesday in a blast at a hospital in Gaza. Protests erupted around the world. Thousands of people have died in both Israel and Gaza over the last week and a half.
To help us put this all into context, Professor Eric Schwartz joined MPR News Host Cathy Wurzer. He is chair of the Humphrey School’s global policy area at the University of Minnesota.
Use the audio player above to listen to the full conversation.
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Audio transcript
[MUSIC PLAYING] CATHY WURZER: At this hour, a number of community groups in Minneapolis are calling for a cease-fire in Gaza as the war between Israel and Hamas continues to escalate. Hundreds of people were killed yesterday in a blast at a hospital in Gaza. Protests erupted around the world After that. Thousands of people have died in both Israel and Gaza over the last week and a half.
To help us put all this into some context, Professor Eric Schwartz is on the line right now. He's a chair of the Humphrey School's Global Policy Area at the University of Minnesota. Professor Schwartz, welcome.
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Oh, thank you, Cathy. It's a pleasure to be here.
CATHY WURZER: There are denials of responsibility from both Israeli and Palestinian camps against this backdrop of competing online narratives. What are we supposed to make of this attack, and how are we to know what is the true story?
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Well, I don't think we're going to know the true story for some time. But I think the fact that the president, in his public remarks, indicated his understanding or impression that it came from the Palestinian side I think that's telling because he would not have made that statement if he didn't have some information that he regarded as reasonably compelling.
But we won't know. We won't know for sure. And I'm not sure how much, well, it certainly will matter, but this kind of event is tragically almost inevitable in the context of this kind of a conflict.
CATHY WURZER: I want to go back to what the president had to say in just a couple of minutes, but I want to ask you first about all the protests around the world right now. There have been fires set at the US embassy in Beirut. What could that signal?
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, first of all, I need to say at the outset that one cannot ignore or disregard or fail to recognize the slaughter for which Hamas was responsible and that, and that really is the starting point of the discussion of what's happened over the past many days, and one has to sympathize and grieve with those Israelis who have suffered.
Having said that, I think that the Israeli response is going to have a significant and substantial impact, not only on world opinion, not only on the views of Palestinian civilians, but also governments in the region. And to the extent that a response, a military response in Gaza, impacts the lives of civilians in Gaza, that is going to have significant and substantial impacts on what is left of a peace process and of global support for a durable peace for the Israeli position.
So the events of the next several weeks are going to be absolutely crucial, and how the Israelis respond and what the American government says to the Israelis about the nature of their response is going to be extremely important, which is why I think President Biden's comment today essentially that rage is not a policy that the Israelis should not be consumed by rage, but they have to think about what comes next.
CATHY WURZER: What did you make of the president saying that the US will not just be providing aid to Israel but also to Palestinian citizens in Gaza? Is that a change in approach or tone? Is it in line with previous administrations? What did you make of that?
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Well, it's somewhat of a departure from the Trump administration, but it's not. US humanitarian support for Palestinians has always been sort of a hallmark of US foreign policy. When I was Assistant Secretary of State in the Obama administration for humanitarian issues, we fought very hard to sustain robust US support for the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine refugees in the Near East, and the United States has traditionally been the largest country supporter for UNRRA. And in most administrations, that's been the case, Democratic as well as Republican, with the exception of the Trump administration.
So I think support for the Palestinian civilians humanitarian aid has always been part of US policy. The real critical issue for the American government is, again, when this immediate crisis passes, how are we going to-- how is the United States going to engage the parties on some sort of durable solution? And that will require that the Israeli government make changes in policy and concessions that it has not yet been prepared to make.
And that will be the key over the course of the next many, many months if we want to ensure that we don't have a recurrence of this kind of violence. There's been a sort of a growing conventional wisdom that if the United States developed strong relations through the Abraham Accords with Bahrain, with the United Arab Emirates, with the government of-- not the United States. If Israel developed diplomatic relations with those countries, perhaps with Saudi Arabia, then perhaps the Palestinian issue would kind of go away.
But there are millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and in Gaza who have very different views about that. So this issue has got to be addressed if there's going to be a durable and sustainable peace.
CATHY WURZER: So you're talking about a durable solution here, but I'm assuming then that you would not think that would involve US troops being sent to the region because there's talk of that.
ERIC SCHWARTZ: No, I don't-- I mean, I think in the current situation, I think there is value to the United States projecting and demonstrating the fact that the United States will be a presence in the region. And I think there is value in the United States demonstrating to the government of Israel that we will be supportive of the government in this very difficult time, and so there may be some troop support. But I don't see the deployment of US ground forces as in the realm of the possible right now.
CATHY WURZER: All right. Professor, I wish I had more time. Thank you so very much.
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you.
CATHY WURZER: We've been talking to Professor Eric Schwartz. He's the chair of the Humphrey School's Global Policy Area at the University of Minnesota.
To help us put all this into some context, Professor Eric Schwartz is on the line right now. He's a chair of the Humphrey School's Global Policy Area at the University of Minnesota. Professor Schwartz, welcome.
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Oh, thank you, Cathy. It's a pleasure to be here.
CATHY WURZER: There are denials of responsibility from both Israeli and Palestinian camps against this backdrop of competing online narratives. What are we supposed to make of this attack, and how are we to know what is the true story?
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Well, I don't think we're going to know the true story for some time. But I think the fact that the president, in his public remarks, indicated his understanding or impression that it came from the Palestinian side I think that's telling because he would not have made that statement if he didn't have some information that he regarded as reasonably compelling.
But we won't know. We won't know for sure. And I'm not sure how much, well, it certainly will matter, but this kind of event is tragically almost inevitable in the context of this kind of a conflict.
CATHY WURZER: I want to go back to what the president had to say in just a couple of minutes, but I want to ask you first about all the protests around the world right now. There have been fires set at the US embassy in Beirut. What could that signal?
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, first of all, I need to say at the outset that one cannot ignore or disregard or fail to recognize the slaughter for which Hamas was responsible and that, and that really is the starting point of the discussion of what's happened over the past many days, and one has to sympathize and grieve with those Israelis who have suffered.
Having said that, I think that the Israeli response is going to have a significant and substantial impact, not only on world opinion, not only on the views of Palestinian civilians, but also governments in the region. And to the extent that a response, a military response in Gaza, impacts the lives of civilians in Gaza, that is going to have significant and substantial impacts on what is left of a peace process and of global support for a durable peace for the Israeli position.
So the events of the next several weeks are going to be absolutely crucial, and how the Israelis respond and what the American government says to the Israelis about the nature of their response is going to be extremely important, which is why I think President Biden's comment today essentially that rage is not a policy that the Israelis should not be consumed by rage, but they have to think about what comes next.
CATHY WURZER: What did you make of the president saying that the US will not just be providing aid to Israel but also to Palestinian citizens in Gaza? Is that a change in approach or tone? Is it in line with previous administrations? What did you make of that?
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Well, it's somewhat of a departure from the Trump administration, but it's not. US humanitarian support for Palestinians has always been sort of a hallmark of US foreign policy. When I was Assistant Secretary of State in the Obama administration for humanitarian issues, we fought very hard to sustain robust US support for the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine refugees in the Near East, and the United States has traditionally been the largest country supporter for UNRRA. And in most administrations, that's been the case, Democratic as well as Republican, with the exception of the Trump administration.
So I think support for the Palestinian civilians humanitarian aid has always been part of US policy. The real critical issue for the American government is, again, when this immediate crisis passes, how are we going to-- how is the United States going to engage the parties on some sort of durable solution? And that will require that the Israeli government make changes in policy and concessions that it has not yet been prepared to make.
And that will be the key over the course of the next many, many months if we want to ensure that we don't have a recurrence of this kind of violence. There's been a sort of a growing conventional wisdom that if the United States developed strong relations through the Abraham Accords with Bahrain, with the United Arab Emirates, with the government of-- not the United States. If Israel developed diplomatic relations with those countries, perhaps with Saudi Arabia, then perhaps the Palestinian issue would kind of go away.
But there are millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and in Gaza who have very different views about that. So this issue has got to be addressed if there's going to be a durable and sustainable peace.
CATHY WURZER: So you're talking about a durable solution here, but I'm assuming then that you would not think that would involve US troops being sent to the region because there's talk of that.
ERIC SCHWARTZ: No, I don't-- I mean, I think in the current situation, I think there is value to the United States projecting and demonstrating the fact that the United States will be a presence in the region. And I think there is value in the United States demonstrating to the government of Israel that we will be supportive of the government in this very difficult time, and so there may be some troop support. But I don't see the deployment of US ground forces as in the realm of the possible right now.
CATHY WURZER: All right. Professor, I wish I had more time. Thank you so very much.
ERIC SCHWARTZ: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you.
CATHY WURZER: We've been talking to Professor Eric Schwartz. He's the chair of the Humphrey School's Global Policy Area at the University of Minnesota.
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