What happens when children witness gun violence

[MUSIC PLAYING] INTERVIEWER: St. Paul's Hmong community is reeling from the brutal murder-suicide left five children orphans last week. According to family members, Yia Xiong shot and killed his partner Ka Lor before turning the gun on himself while the couple's five young children were playing inside the house. The eldest, a nine-year-old, reported the deaths to 911. The family says it will need help with funeral expenses and costs associated with raising the children. The tragedy has sparked a number of conversations about mental health and domestic violence, but the deaths also got us to thinking about the rising numbers of children who witnessed gun violence, especially involving their parents.

Dr. Sherry Hamby is a clinical psychologist and research professor of psychology at Sewanee, University of the South. She studied the deep and lasting trauma children experience when they see a parent attacked. She specializes in violence and resilience in youth.

She was just quoted in a "Washington Post" article on the trauma kids who see their parents shot and killed endure. It's an article that will stop you in your tracks. She joins us right now. Dr. Hamby, welcome.

SHERRY HAMBY: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

INTERVIEWER: I appreciate your time here today. Earlier this summer, another St. Paul family experienced a murder-suicide, and I'm wondering just how common is it for kids to witness gun violence with a parent.

SHERRY HAMBY: It's actually an extremely common phenomenon, and unfortunately, our surveillance of homicides does not do a good job of assessing how often it happens. But our research suggests that it's much more widespread than previously known.

INTERVIEWER: This is such a specific kind of trauma. I'm wondering, how would you characterize this type of trauma from a psychological perspective?

SHERRY HAMBY: Well, I think the important thing to understand about trauma is that it has a massive impact over all of the systems of our body. And so in the moment of threat, in the moment of danger, or even in the moment of just hearing about some kind of gun violence, we'll respond with this big physiological responses, adrenaline and cortisol and other hormones reacting. And that, over time, really takes a toll on many of the systems of our body, not just our psychological well-being, but also our immune systems, our problems with chronic inflammation, and things like that. And that's where a lot of the long-term impacts of trauma derive from.

INTERVIEWER: I'm wondering, is the trauma different if it was a murder-suicide? I mean, both caretakers are gone.

SHERRY HAMBY: Yes, absolutely. I think that that is a particularly overwhelming traumatic experience to lose a parent, one or both parents certainly. Because those are the people who most kids associate with keeping them safe in the world.

And so in our research, surprisingly, we have found that kids often have much stronger responses in terms of fear or PTSD symptoms or things like that to attacks on their parents, whether they're fatal or non-fatal attacks, and even on some attacks to themselves directly. And I think it's because of that lack of-- because if something bad happens to you as a child, then your initial response is to run to your parent and have your parent fix things. But if something happens to your parent, then that often leaves them with this sense that there's nobody to intervene against these bad things that are happening.

INTERVIEWER: Do kids feel guilt too that they should have done something?

SHERRY HAMBY: Well, I think that can vary, I mean, on the circumstances of it. But certainly, blaming one's self for bad things is a common reaction and something that can exacerbate a lot of the psychological consequences of it.

INTERVIEWER: I can't imagine these poor kids would ever feel safe again anywhere. Is that a common thread?

SHERRY HAMBY: Well, I think that it is a devastating experience for any child. The long-term outcome data on kids who've had these kind of experience certainly suggests that they're at heightened risk of depression and post-traumatic stress disorder and a number of behavioral problems and a number of other challenges. But I also do research on resilience, and I also think it is important to realize that even for people who have experienced really overwhelming trauma, that it is possible to build up a portfolio of strengths, not just their own strengths, but support from their extended families, from their schools, from their communities, and that it is still possible to overcome even horrific experiences of trauma.

INTERVIEWER: But do these kids get the help they need, generally speaking?

SHERRY HAMBY: Unfortunately, no. That is probably one of the biggest gaps in our social welfare safety net, is that most of the criminal justice focus is on the perpetrators. And on something like this, with a murder-suicide, from the law enforcement perspective, this might just seem like case closed and that there's nothing more that needs to be done about that. We don't even do a very good job of keeping track of how many collateral victims, you might say, there are, from orphaned children to other witnesses who might have been at the scene, to other family members who are going to be impacted by this as well.

And so unfortunately, in most places, there's not any kind of systematic attempt to track these kids, to make sure that they're getting their needs assessed, and to make sure that they are getting everything that is important for them to help them cope with these events. And there's support that these families need to. I notice you mentioned in your news story that these family is now going to need funds, and they've lost the income of the parents as well and that there's just not good systems in place to help restore these kids after an event like that.

INTERVIEWER: Our system does not help these kids or these families, who usually steps forward?

SHERRY HAMBY: Well, a lot of times, it's done on a very ad hoc basis. I mean, in some cities, there are good programs that are run by non-profits or have sometimes even state or local organizations that might help provide services to these kids. But it's very piecemeal, and it's also something that depends a lot on the wealth of the community.

So for example, I live in a very rural area where there's just not access to that kind of help at all, really. Whereas, in a big city, there might be more of it. But a lot of times, it's also a problem of trying to figure out where you can go for help and who has the ability to help you because there's not some systematic response built into the initial criminal justice response to the incident.

INTERVIEWER: I'm curious. You personally here, what gives you hope when doing this kind of work?

SHERRY HAMBY: Well, I have been doing this kind of work for 30 years. As much as you can see the traumatic impacts of these horrible kinds of events, I have just also been, every time, impressed by the resilience of children and families. And some of them go on to become providers themselves or activists themselves, and so I just am always inspired by everything that people do to help them overcome these traumatic experiences. And I certainly wish that family and the children and their whole extended family the best in trying to put together the resources that they're going to need after this tragic incident.

INTERVIEWER: I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

SHERRY HAMBY: Thank you for having me.

INTERVIEWER: Dr. Sherry Hamby is a psychology professor at Sewanee, The University of the South in Tennessee. If you or someone you know needs help with mental health or is at risk of suicide, you can call 988 or go to 988lifeline.org.