Why so many train derailments recently? A reporter weighs in
An aerial view of the Hyndman crash.
CSX Train Derailment with Hazardous Materials Release via National Transportation Safety Board
Trains are running again on the tracks at the site of the Raymond Minnesota derailment last week. The tracks were repaired and put back into service over the weekend. 22 cars, carrying ethanol and corn syrup jumped the tracks last week and some of the cars caught fire.
The Raymond crash is one of many in this country recently which has led many people to wonder — what is causing all of these train crashes?
Dan Schwartz's report in a recent article out through the nonprofit investigative newsroom, Propublica, suggests one answer could be that there are longer and longer freight trains running.
Schwartz suggests in his article that federal regulators should take action regulating the length of freight trains if they want to curb the increasingly common and dangerous train derailments around the country. Dan joined MPR News host Cathy Wurzer to talk about his reporting.
Use the audio player above to listen to the full conversation.
Subscribe to the Minnesota Now podcast on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
We attempt to make transcripts for Minnesota Now available the next business day after a broadcast. When ready they will appear here.
Create a More Connected Minnesota
MPR News is your trusted resource for the news you need. With your support, MPR News brings accessible, courageous journalism and authentic conversation to everyone - free of paywalls and barriers. Your gift makes a difference.
Audio transcript
CATHY WURZER: Trains are running again on the tracks at the site of the Raymond Minnesota derailment last week. The tracks were repaired and put back into service over the weekend. 22 cars carrying ethanol and corn syrup jumped the tracks last week. Some of the cars caught fire. The town had to be evacuated.
The Raymond crash is one of many in this country recently, which has led folks to wonder, what is causing all of these train crashes? Dan Schwartz's report in a recent article out through the nonprofit investigative newsroom, ProPublica, suggests one answer could be there are longer and longer freight trains running. Schwartz suggests in his article that federal regulators should take action regulating the length of freight trains if they want to curb the increasingly common and dangerous train derailments around the country.
Dan Schwartz joins us right now to talk about his reporting. Thank you. Thanks for joining us.
DAN SCHWARTZ: Thanks for having me, Cathy.
CATHY WURZER: My father used to work for the old Soo Line railroad. And back in the day, a mile-long train was considered massive. I didn't realize until reading your story that some of these trains nowadays are two or even three miles long, and there's a way that cars should be strung together. Explain the delicate physics for us.
DAN SCHWARTZ: That's right, Cathy. Yeah, my colleague Topher Sanders and I, in reporting this story, we learned there's a lot of ways that a long train can be constructed badly. The main way it seems is by distributing the weight unevenly.
And what we've seen in a lot of derailments or crashes involving long trains is that weight is placed in the back of the train and then light cars or empty cars are up front. So when the train is breaking down a grade, or even just on flat surface, those rear heavy cars are pushing on the light cars. And they can actually lift those cars up off the track and cause the train to derail.
CATHY WURZER: Who's making these decisions? And where are they being made? Is it with the engineer or somebody in the rail yard?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Well, the actual workers are implementing these decisions. So they're the ones doing it, but they're not the ones who are deciding to do it. They're following policies that a lot of these class I or these large railroads in the country have imposed. And these policies are pretty consistent with this new corporate management philosophy called precision scheduled railroading.
CATHY WURZER: And a railroad makes money by the weight and distance of the freight it hauls, right?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Yes, that's correct.
CATHY WURZER: So can we pinpoint here, Dan, how many train accidents of recent memory have been caused by trains that were too long? Are figures kept?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Well, the data is a little patchy. What we were able to determine, Topher and I, we reviewed more than 600 investigative reports compiled by the Federal Railroad Administration. They're really the sole regulator of safety in the railroad industry. And we found of those more than 600, about from 2005 to 2020, the time frame we're able to look at, there was about 17 or 18 derailments involving long trains. And those trains derailed for reasons associated with train length, you know, including what I just mentioned, the weight being distributed unevenly.
CATHY WURZER: And by the way, how many cars are we talking about with some of these derailments? Do you know?
DAN SCHWARTZ: A train that's more than two miles long can include more than 200 cars. It's kind of difficult to estimate train length based on cars because a train car can vary dramatically in its length and in itself.
CATHY WURZER: Can regulators do anything about the length of these trains? Can they slap fines on the railroads? Or is it just a matter of the railroads doing whatever they want to do?
DAN SCHWARTZ: If we're talking about state regulators, there's, at least what we've seen, there's very little that they can do. I mean, they can impose fines and stuff. But often, courts will knock those down, saying only the federal government can regulate the trains.
And as far as the feds go, I mean, Congress can certainly take action at any time and try to curb this problem. But the Federal Railroad Administration, the sole regulator of safety, congressionally mandated to do action on safety and long trains, they could impose an emergency order. But what they've told us is they-- and what experts have told us is, they need to make a really good case to do that, like say a cap train length.
And what the FRA tells us, they just don't have good data on train length. But it's kind of a quagmire of their own making because they haven't been recording the length of trains. They haven't been capturing that when they collect data on trains.
CATHY WURZER: Of course, we've been focusing on the Raymond Minnesota train derailment. That was 22 cars. We don't know yet what caused that train to derail. And the NTSB has been looking at this. It could take months. How likely do you think, based on your reporting, that the length of this freight train in Raymond Minnesota had something to do with the derailment?
DAN SCHWARTZ: I really don't know. I don't know the details of that derailment. We were kind of deeply involved in putting this story together. So I need to look more into that. But if the train was more than 1.4 miles long, that's definitely a factor that investigators should, and I'm sure are looking at.
The East Palestine train, East Palestine, Ohio, that derailment recently-- that train was a long train. But so far, it appears that length wasn't a factor there. So I mean, even if it turns out to be a long train, it didn't necessarily derail because of its length. But it's certainly something investigators should look at.
CATHY WURZER: I know that the edict for these long trains comes down from management. How is the training of the rail workers? I know there's a shortage of rail workers. Are they going fast? Are they getting the support they need to put these trains together?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Well, we've heard from our sources in that space is that employees are not being given the training necessary to operate a long train. And often, driving a long train we understand, requires a lot more training. Because the forces a short train generates can be enormous, and then the forces a train twice that length or what have you, it can be a lot greater.
So employees generally do require more training to operate safely, a long train. And we're hearing that they're not being given the necessary training. And that's presenting safety issues.
CATHY WURZER: Before you go here, Dan, I mean, obviously you've been immersed in the reporting around this very well-reported story. What other questions are out there that you want to have asked and answered, I should say?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Well, we would really love to know what data the railroad industry collects on train lengths. We assume that they have private information about the lengths of every train that they run. We assume their lobby has that as well. We've asked them to provide that data. They did not.
The FRA, also we asked them. The FRA has asked the industry to provide that data. And the industry has not provided the federal regulator that data. And other agencies have been rebuffed as well. So I mean, we would really love to know what data the railroad industry collects on long trains. We would love to receive that data. We'd love to analyze it, and we can answer some very, very pressing questions that the public needs to know.
CATHY WURZER: All right. Dan Schwartz, excellent reporting. Thank you so much.
DAN SCHWARTZ: Thank you, Cathy.
CATHY WURZER: Dan is with ProPublica.
The Raymond crash is one of many in this country recently, which has led folks to wonder, what is causing all of these train crashes? Dan Schwartz's report in a recent article out through the nonprofit investigative newsroom, ProPublica, suggests one answer could be there are longer and longer freight trains running. Schwartz suggests in his article that federal regulators should take action regulating the length of freight trains if they want to curb the increasingly common and dangerous train derailments around the country.
Dan Schwartz joins us right now to talk about his reporting. Thank you. Thanks for joining us.
DAN SCHWARTZ: Thanks for having me, Cathy.
CATHY WURZER: My father used to work for the old Soo Line railroad. And back in the day, a mile-long train was considered massive. I didn't realize until reading your story that some of these trains nowadays are two or even three miles long, and there's a way that cars should be strung together. Explain the delicate physics for us.
DAN SCHWARTZ: That's right, Cathy. Yeah, my colleague Topher Sanders and I, in reporting this story, we learned there's a lot of ways that a long train can be constructed badly. The main way it seems is by distributing the weight unevenly.
And what we've seen in a lot of derailments or crashes involving long trains is that weight is placed in the back of the train and then light cars or empty cars are up front. So when the train is breaking down a grade, or even just on flat surface, those rear heavy cars are pushing on the light cars. And they can actually lift those cars up off the track and cause the train to derail.
CATHY WURZER: Who's making these decisions? And where are they being made? Is it with the engineer or somebody in the rail yard?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Well, the actual workers are implementing these decisions. So they're the ones doing it, but they're not the ones who are deciding to do it. They're following policies that a lot of these class I or these large railroads in the country have imposed. And these policies are pretty consistent with this new corporate management philosophy called precision scheduled railroading.
CATHY WURZER: And a railroad makes money by the weight and distance of the freight it hauls, right?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Yes, that's correct.
CATHY WURZER: So can we pinpoint here, Dan, how many train accidents of recent memory have been caused by trains that were too long? Are figures kept?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Well, the data is a little patchy. What we were able to determine, Topher and I, we reviewed more than 600 investigative reports compiled by the Federal Railroad Administration. They're really the sole regulator of safety in the railroad industry. And we found of those more than 600, about from 2005 to 2020, the time frame we're able to look at, there was about 17 or 18 derailments involving long trains. And those trains derailed for reasons associated with train length, you know, including what I just mentioned, the weight being distributed unevenly.
CATHY WURZER: And by the way, how many cars are we talking about with some of these derailments? Do you know?
DAN SCHWARTZ: A train that's more than two miles long can include more than 200 cars. It's kind of difficult to estimate train length based on cars because a train car can vary dramatically in its length and in itself.
CATHY WURZER: Can regulators do anything about the length of these trains? Can they slap fines on the railroads? Or is it just a matter of the railroads doing whatever they want to do?
DAN SCHWARTZ: If we're talking about state regulators, there's, at least what we've seen, there's very little that they can do. I mean, they can impose fines and stuff. But often, courts will knock those down, saying only the federal government can regulate the trains.
And as far as the feds go, I mean, Congress can certainly take action at any time and try to curb this problem. But the Federal Railroad Administration, the sole regulator of safety, congressionally mandated to do action on safety and long trains, they could impose an emergency order. But what they've told us is they-- and what experts have told us is, they need to make a really good case to do that, like say a cap train length.
And what the FRA tells us, they just don't have good data on train length. But it's kind of a quagmire of their own making because they haven't been recording the length of trains. They haven't been capturing that when they collect data on trains.
CATHY WURZER: Of course, we've been focusing on the Raymond Minnesota train derailment. That was 22 cars. We don't know yet what caused that train to derail. And the NTSB has been looking at this. It could take months. How likely do you think, based on your reporting, that the length of this freight train in Raymond Minnesota had something to do with the derailment?
DAN SCHWARTZ: I really don't know. I don't know the details of that derailment. We were kind of deeply involved in putting this story together. So I need to look more into that. But if the train was more than 1.4 miles long, that's definitely a factor that investigators should, and I'm sure are looking at.
The East Palestine train, East Palestine, Ohio, that derailment recently-- that train was a long train. But so far, it appears that length wasn't a factor there. So I mean, even if it turns out to be a long train, it didn't necessarily derail because of its length. But it's certainly something investigators should look at.
CATHY WURZER: I know that the edict for these long trains comes down from management. How is the training of the rail workers? I know there's a shortage of rail workers. Are they going fast? Are they getting the support they need to put these trains together?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Well, we've heard from our sources in that space is that employees are not being given the training necessary to operate a long train. And often, driving a long train we understand, requires a lot more training. Because the forces a short train generates can be enormous, and then the forces a train twice that length or what have you, it can be a lot greater.
So employees generally do require more training to operate safely, a long train. And we're hearing that they're not being given the necessary training. And that's presenting safety issues.
CATHY WURZER: Before you go here, Dan, I mean, obviously you've been immersed in the reporting around this very well-reported story. What other questions are out there that you want to have asked and answered, I should say?
DAN SCHWARTZ: Well, we would really love to know what data the railroad industry collects on train lengths. We assume that they have private information about the lengths of every train that they run. We assume their lobby has that as well. We've asked them to provide that data. They did not.
The FRA, also we asked them. The FRA has asked the industry to provide that data. And the industry has not provided the federal regulator that data. And other agencies have been rebuffed as well. So I mean, we would really love to know what data the railroad industry collects on long trains. We would love to receive that data. We'd love to analyze it, and we can answer some very, very pressing questions that the public needs to know.
CATHY WURZER: All right. Dan Schwartz, excellent reporting. Thank you so much.
DAN SCHWARTZ: Thank you, Cathy.
CATHY WURZER: Dan is with ProPublica.
Download transcript (PDF)
Transcription services provided by 3Play Media.